UVB and Snakes discussion moved.

[softkiss]

what is repcal and how do u give them it, in their water? i tried to look it up and i found reptile and amphibian food?? any sites i can look at to check what you use out? because i'd rather help him out with any problems he may have in the future
Using Rep-Cal is advantageous for any snake as it has a nutrient additive called D3 which is essential for a snakes skin to maintain it's proper health. D3 can only be achieved from the snake being in direct day/sun light. Another reason my snakes have perfect sheds is the way I have their enclosure set up they have constant sun/day light on their top level and outdoor cage that they can be in all day as the cages are set up in front of my picture window.
UV bulbs are needed to replace this loss in a snakes requirements, but a UV bulb doesn't furnish the nutrient D3 that they get from sun light.

[ffollett]

Snakes as a general rule do not need UV lighting or additional supplements for their health. They obtain all of the nutrition they need from their prey items since they eat the entire animal. Snakes derive their vitamin D3 from the livers of the animals they eat. UV and supplements are more for diurnal reptiles that do not get the same kind of nutrition from their meals, i.e the ones that eat plants or insects. Insectivores get some D3 from insects but as a general rule it is not enough.

[Basil]

The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't hurt to give a snake a nutritional supplement that has been proven to be an asset to prevent bone disease.


I've actually read quite the contrary. Excessive levels of Vitamin D3 and calcium combined will lead to toxicity of their organs. Also leads to metastatic calcification. As Fred stated, snakes do get their vitamin D3 through their prey items liver and kidneys. But, hey, I'm no vet! :)

[The Snake Guru]

I've actually read quite the contrary. Excessive levels of Vitamin D3 and calcium combined will lead to toxicity of their organs. Also leads to metastatic calcification. As Fred stated, snakes do get their vitamin D3 through their prey items liver and kidneys. But, hey, I'm no vet! :)

Man, I couldn't have said better myself.
Fred and Michael both are right on the money.

Also Rep-Cal is designed more for Lizards, Tortioses, ect. ect. Not snakes, as previously mentioned snakes in general shouldn't need any additional supplimentation due to the fact thier meals are a one stop shop....it fulfills all thier requirements in one shot. Using a high Calcium product as mentioned by Michael will actually do more harm than good.

~B~

[softkiss]

Snakes as a general rule do not need UV lighting or additional supplements for their health. They obtain all of the nutrition they need from their prey items since they eat the entire animal. Snakes derive their vitamin D3 from the livers of the animals they eat. UV and supplements are more for diurnal reptiles that do not get the same kind of nutrition from their meals, i.e the ones that eat plants or insects. Insectivores get some D3 from insects but as a general rule it is not enough.


http://www.uvguide.co.uk/vitdpathway.htm

The pathway begins when a cholesterol, provitamin D, (full name 7-dehydrocholesterol, or 7DHC) is manufactured by cells in the skin. When exposed to UVB at wavelengths between 290 - 315nm, this provitamin D, held within the cell membrane, is converted very rapidly indeed to previtamin D3. The peak production is at 297nm.

Previtamin D3 is then isomerised (transformed by a re-arrangement of atoms in the molecule) slowly, in warm skin, over several hours, to vitamin D3. Warmth is needed for the reaction to proceed at a normal rate. Reptiles obtain this heat from the sun, as they bask.

The vitamin D3 is released from the skin cell membranes and is taken up by a "vitamin D-binding protein" into the plasma. It is thus carried in the bloodstream from the skin to the liver, where it is hydroxylated to calcediol, 25-hydroxy-vitamin D3. This is the substance which is tested for in blood samples taken to assess the reptile's vitamin D status.

Calcediol is then circulated in the bloodstream all around the body. In the kidneys, some is converted to the active hormone calcetriol. This plays a major part in calcium metabolism, governing the levels of calcium in the blood by controlling absorption of calcium from the gut and also from the bones, should dietary levels be inadequate for the body's needs.

Calcediol has also, in recent years, been found to play a vital part in the normal functioning of other organs. It is taken up by cells throughout the body, and converted intracellularly to calcetriol. This local action has beneficial effects upon the immune system, the cardiovascular system, and in preventing cells in many organs from becoming cancerous by controlling cell division.

There is also new evidence that skin cells in sunlight can actually complete the entire pathway from provitamin D to calcetriol intracellularly, which may increase the skin's resistance to cancer.

Calcediol, in humans, has a half-life of about two weeks in the bloodstream. In some reptiles, this circulating calcediol may act as the body's main store of vitamin D.

Vitamin D3 does not remain in high concentrations in the bloodstream. In humans, that which is not hydroxylated to calcediol in the liver is taken up into body fat, where it is apparently stored but we are not aware of any studies ascertaining whether such storage takes place in reptiles, or if it does, how long such a store might last.

However, hypervitaminosis-D is not known to occur in basking reptiles (or any other species) obtaining their vitamin D from sunlight, regardless of how long they bask. This is because there are inbuilt safety mechanisms preventing overproduction of vitamin D in the skin. Interestingly, these also rely upon ultraviolet light,

As we saw earlier, when a reptile basks in full sunlight, previtamin D3 is produced very rapidly and accumulates in the skin. Its conversion to vitamin D3 is a much slower, heat dependent process. One might expect huge quantities of preD3 to build up, but this does not happen. This is because preD3 is also sensitive to ultraviolet light up to 325nm; a proportion is converted quite rapidly into two biologically inactive products, lumisterol3 and tachysterol3. These also accumulate in the skin.

Most of the studies have been conducted on human skin, but the same process is believed to occur in reptiles; lumisterol3 has been isolated from gecko skin samples exposed to sunlight.

There is also a second line of defence against overproduction of D3. As we saw earlier, vitamin D3, once produced, is carried away in the bloodstream to the liver. However, should excess vitamin D3 build up in the skin - if, for example, more is produced than the binding protein can remove - ultraviolet light breaks this down, as well, into three new substances: two suprasterols and 5,6 trans-vitamin D. This latter product does have some biological activity; the others are believed to be inert.

What happens to all these inert by-products? Research is ongoing; however, we can speculate that the lumisterol3 and tachysterol3, in particular, might be used as a source of preD3. This is because their production from preD3 is a reversible reaction.

Under ultraviolet light, an equilibrium forms with varying concentrations of the three, depending in part upon the exact wavelengths of the light. The three substances have slightly different action spectra. Lumisterol3 may be converted back to preD3 by light of wavelengths up to 315nm; tachysterol3 responds right up to 335nm, which is in the UVA range.

This might not seem to be a significant difference until one considers the effect of the atmosphere upon solar radiation. The lower wavelengths are absorbed more readily by the atmosphere. When the sun is low in the sky, in the early morning, late afternoon, and for much of the winter in Northern latitudes, wavelengths below 300nm may never reach the surface of the earth at all. At these times preD3 synthesis from provitamin D almost completely ceases,44,21 but it is at least theoretically possible that the ultraviolet light of the slightly higher wavelengths could promote the conversion of tachysterol3, which is incidentally the most reactive of the three substances, to preD3. If this does occur, it might provide a source of preD3 when there is not enough low-wavelength UVB to create sufficient from provitamin D.

Some reptiles may be able to sense whether or not they need vitamin D, and alter the time they spend basking under UVB light accordingly. In one study, panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) fed a diet low in vitamin D3 spent more time basking under ultraviolet light than those on a high D3 diet. In addition, they were more attracted to lamps emitting UVB than to equally bright lamps which emitted UVA. Whether they can actually see the UVB is not known, but they do appear to be able to detect it by some means.

[ffollett]

It seems that they are not sure when it comes to snakes. I have bookmarked the site and will be interested in their findings when they have a answer though.

Taken from the same site.

Snakes
Few snakes are thought to require ultraviolet lighting, at present, since vitamin D3 from the diet is almost certainly adequate for most species. However, some authors believe that Diamond Pythons (Morelia spilota spilota) 37, Indigo Snakes (Drymarchon corais) 39, some aquatic species 11, the insectivorous Rough and Smooth Green Snakes (Opheodrys aestivus and O. vernalis) and other arboreal, diurnal snakes 26,38 may benefit from low levels of UVB light in captivity. Snakes are sensitive to excessively bright artificial light, however, and this must be avoided.

Snakes
More research is needed as to the relationship between UV light and vitamin D3 metabolism in the snake. Traditionally, nocturnal and crepuscular snakes are not thought to require UV light. However, there would not seem to be any reason why they should not be able to utilise it for vitamin D3 synthesis. Is there any difference in transmission of UV between the skin of nocturnal and diurnal species of snake?

Snakes such as the forest-dwelling kingsnakes, which live in shaded habitats and are often active at night, might be expected to have skin which allows a high degree of UVB penetration; and indeed, this does seem to be the case; the skin from several species transmitted 45% or more of the UVB.

However, the inverse relationship between skin permeability and the amount of sun to which the reptile exposes itself does not seem as straightforward in snakes as it does in lizards.

Garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis), for example, are diurnal and often seen basking in morning sun, in a wide range of habitats across Canada and the USA from Alaska to Texas. Surprisingly, skin from the back of the snake would appear to transmit a similar proportion of UV light as that of the back of a leopard gecko. The skin on the belly was even more translucent, allowing 56% of the UVB through.

The skin of boas and pythons (with normal pigmentation) is much more protective. The skin of the Argentine Boas (Boa constrictor occidentalis), for example, permitted only 18% transmission. This is a nocturnal snake of the forest, grassland and scrub of Paraguay and Argentina; one might have expected a more "transparent" skin. It is tempting to speculate that these snakes, although active at night, do not hide away during daylight but rather, rest in well-lit tree branches where they are exposed to significant amounts of scattered UV light, if not direct sunlight.

Not surprisingly, the skin of 'albino' animals, and patches of unpigmented skin in piebald morphs, permitted a high percentage of UVB penetration compared to normal, pigmented skin. Such animals might be expected to be abnormally sensitive to UV light; melanin is one of the skin's main defences against UV light.

[softkiss]

Snakes as a general rule do not need UV lighting or additional supplements for their health. They obtain all of the nutrition they need from their prey items since they eat the entire animal. Snakes derive their vitamin D3 from the livers of the animals they eat. UV and supplements are more for diurnal reptiles that do not get the same kind of nutrition from their meals, i.e the ones that eat plants or insects. Insectivores get some D3 from insects but as a general rule it is not enough.

Vitamin D plays an important role in the maintenance of organ systems.

In relation to the questions and doubts about the D3 and it's significance in bone/jaw deterioration.

* Vitamin D regulates the calcium and phosphorus levels in the blood by promoting their absorption from food in the intestines, and by promoting re-absorption of calcium in the kidneys.
* It promotes bone formation and mineralization and is essential in the development of an intact and strong skeleton.

Lack Of Critical Lubricant Causes Wear In Animal Joints
ScienceDaily (Nov. 7, 2007) — Mice that don’t produce lubricin, a thin film of protein found in the cartilage of joints, showed early wear and higher friction in their joints, a new study led by Brown University researchers shows.

High in UVB for vitamin D3 synthesis...
Most reptiles need to synthesize vitamin D3 in their skin for their healthy growth. Ultra violet light of a particular wave band, known as UVB (290-320 nm), is required, and is produced by the Arcadia D3 Reptile lamp. UVB is not present in sufficient quantities in normal full spectrum fluorescent lamps, because the glass absorbs UVB, whereas the D3 Arcadia lamp uses a special glass designed to allow through sufficient yet safe levels of UVB and UVA.

In nature, the sun provides a wealth of light at high intensity for daylight loving reptiles, which can often be seen basking in the sun's rays. This is not just for warmth, but to assist in the synthesis of vitamin D3 which promotes good health in these reptiles.

Vitamin D3 is necessary for the metabolism of calcium, which is needed for strong bone development. A deficiency can result in metabolic bone disease in reptiles.

[ffollett]

Right I know all about that but it is normally listed in diurnal lizards and torts not snakes. I was looking more for the info on snakes. Like I posted from the first link it seems they are not even sure about snakes.

[softkiss]

Right I know all about that but it is normally listed in diurnal lizards and torts not snakes. I was looking more for the info on snakes. Like I posted from the first link it seems they are not even sure about snakes.

http://www.rainbowboas.com/biology/vitD3.htm

Generally, it is believed that these animals need a lot of sunlight to synthesize enough D3 to stave off metabolic bone disease. It is clear that in many parts of the U.S. there just isn’t enough sunlight reliably to prevent metabolic bone disease. This is because the low lying sun in Northern latitudes isn’t as intense as in tropical latitudes,

The D3 synthesis process requires UVB radiation in the 280-315 nm range and this kind of sunlight does NOT travel well through glass or other similar transparent barriers. This means that even in Southern latitudes your reptile must be outdoors most of the time in order to get enough D3. Keeping it inside a green house or beside a window will not do

Just like humans and other mammals, reptiles need vitamin D3 from sunlight, or ultraviolet B (UVB) light, to grown and maintain strong bones. In the wild, reptiles get plenty of sun, but indoor reptiles need an artificial source of UVB rays to maintain calcium in blood and bones.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Dr. Julia Whittington, exotics veterinarian at the University of Illinois Veterinary Teaching Hospital in Urbana, reptiles cannot absorb calcium from the diet efficiently without active vitamin D, also known as vitamin D3. Vitamin D3 helps the intestines absorb calcium from food. UVB light absorbed through the skin helps animals convert inactive vitamin D to active vitamin D3. Without proper sun or UVB exposure, pet reptiles can be deficient in vitamin D3 and therefore deficient in calcium.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calcium is vital for bone growth and maintenance, muscle function, and metabolism. When blood calcium levels are low--a condition called hypocalcemia--an animal may suffer muscle twitches and lethargy. Low blood calcium can also lead to metabolic bone disease; to compensate for blood calcium deficiency, the body may utilize stored calcium from the bones to maintain blood levels. This can be serious problem for growing reptiles, causing poorly developed or soft "gumby" bones that are prone to fractures, according to Dr. Whittington. Long-term calcium deficiency can also lead to secondary hormonal problems involving the parathyroid glands that help regulate calcium levels.

To prevent hypocalcemia, owners need to understand how to supply both proper UVB light and adequate dietary calcium to their reptiles. Dr. Whittington explains that one common mistake owners make is using plant grow lamps to supply light for their reptiles. These lamps supply the UVA light needed by plants, but do not supply UVB rays.

Many people put their reptiles near windows to get sunlight, unaware that plastic and glass block UVB rays. A proper set-up will allow UVB rays from a lamp to reach a reptile without any obstruction. Placing a mesh screen between the lamp and the animal, for example, will allow UVB rays through.

In reptiles, the symptoms are very similar. The problem rarely occurs in the wild, but in today’s age, as people keep other animals in captivity (out of want or necessity), problems occur. Besides being extremely hard to artificially duplicate natural conditions, a human confining other animals often does not allow the confined animal to decide which food to eat or when to bask or hide. Besides hypocalcemia from poor diet leading to nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP), many reptiles (and other captive animals as well) are vitamin D3 deficient. The main cause is lack of exposure to sunlight or other ultraviolet light source. Sunlight filtered through glass is not adequate because the UV rays needed to convert 7-dehydrocholesterol to vitamin D3 are reflected. Vitamin D3 deficient reptiles have thin, weak bones that are surrounded with fibrous connective tissue (cartilage overgrowth) for stability, giving them a swollen appearance. Lower jawbones are often rubbery and misshapen. If not treated (mainly by proper housing and diet), these animals may undergo fine muscular twitching, spasms, paralysis and even death. Other more drastic treatments include injection of calcium (Neocalgucon®), vitamin D3 and calcitonin-salmon (used to treat Paget’s disease and osteoporosis) to jumpstart the recovery process by stimulating osteoblasts. There is also a synthetic form of vitamin D and D3, (REP-CAL is not synthetic but made from natural ingredients) but many animals cannot use the synthetic kind, and over abundance of these secosteroids can lead to calcification of tissues besides bone (heart, lung, G.I. tract, bladder, skin, spinal chord and brain tissue). There have been several studies to establish the effects of vitamin D3 and/or vitamin D. These studies show an overall increase in serum calcium and phosphorus levels. These studies often show a gradual decrease in the elevated calcium levels after about a week. This may be because the high calcium levels have suppressed PTH and therefore vitamin D. There is also some degeneration of the parathyroid cells.

[The Snake Guru]

Not to sound like I don't appreciate the research you are providing, because it is actually a good read.

The article you have once again provided, talks about Reptiles in "general" specifically pointing out instances in some turtles. But still NOTHING on snakes.

If you are going to argue a point that snakes specifically require supplementation the articles you post should be specific to that fact, not to reptiles in general. Just because it is found on rainbowboas.com does not mean the article is geared towards snakes specifically, which this one is most definitely not geared towards snakes but more to a "general" observation on mammals and reptiles.

I will concede to the fact that are certain diurnal species that may benefit from supplements and low level UVA/UVB wave lengths. However Boas in general being of a more nocturnal nature do NOT require additional supplements in their diet to stave off MBD.....until I see something to convince me otherwise anyway.

~B~

[WHISTLE69]

interesting stuff

[softkiss]

Not to sound like I don't appreciate the research you are providing, because it is actually a good read.

The article you have once again provided, talks about Reptiles in "general" specifically pointing out instances in some turtles. But still NOTHING on snakes.

If you are going to argue a point that snakes specifically require supplementation the articles you post should be specific to that fact, not to reptiles in general. Just because it is found on rainbowboas.com does not mean the article is geared towards snakes specifically, which this one is most definitely not geared towards snakes but more to a "general" observation on mammals and reptiles.

I will concede to the fact that are certain diurnal species that may benefit from supplements and low level UVA/UVB wave lengths. However Boas in general being of a more nocturnal nature do NOT require additional supplements in their diet to stave off MBD.....until I see something to convince me otherwise anyway.

~B~
I'm not telling anyone to use the product. I can confirm it is VERY effective for jaw hinge problems. Your snakes, your choice!!!
Only point I'm trying to prove is that my vet advised me as well as the local Wild Life Rehab and Herp Society to try Rep Cal for my Argentines Jaw problems as they all use the product and amazingly enough it really improved the problem and I've never had anymore hinging issues.
It's been researched and tested and been proven to be VERY effective for bone related problems with snakes and until someone proves otherwise that it's bad for them, mine will continue to get it. !!!!
:o)

[mcem]

So I'm gonna chime in here. I work at a zoo with quite a large snake collection (not the largest but we have maybe 500 - 600 snakes representing a number of really rare species). Anyways, in my years as being primarily a snake keeper, I have not noticed a difference in the overall health of our snakes based on access to UV light. Our exhibit animals are exposed to mercury vapor lights but our exhibit animals only make up nearly 35 -40% of our entire collection. We do a lot of our reproductive work off exhibit, without any special lighting. While I have read that there are a few snakes that may benefit from this lighting (as stated earlier in this thread), I believe this is the exception not the rule. We have snakes in our collection that have been here 30 - 40 years probably without ever seeing UV and they are still going strong. Our vet staff is topnotch and I do believe that if they thought our snakes were missing out on something by not having those lights, they would make sure we knew about it. So I believe that UV is not necessary when keeping snakes. And as far as supplementing, if you feed the correct food items, they should have everything the snake needs. I have not once in my life added a supplement to my snakes food and never plan on it unless somebody I respect as an authority could REALLY convince me this is necessary...unlikely though.

[ReptileMan27]

UVB is not needed for snakes, your much better off with belly heat to aid with digestion etc..

[softkiss]

So I'm gonna chime in here. I work at a zoo with quite a large snake collection (not the largest but we have maybe 500 - 600 snakes representing a number of really rare species). Anyways, in my years as being primarily a snake keeper, I have not noticed a difference in the overall health of our snakes based on access to UV light. Our exhibit animals are exposed to mercury vapor lights but our exhibit animals only make up nearly 35 -40% of our entire collection. We do a lot of our reproductive work off exhibit, without any special lighting. While I have read that there are a few snakes that may benefit from this lighting (as stated earlier in this thread), I believe this is the exception not the rule. We have snakes in our collection that have been here 30 - 40 years probably without ever seeing UV and they are still going strong. Our vet staff is topnotch and I do believe that if they thought our snakes were missing out on something by not having those lights, they would make sure we knew about it. So I believe that UV is not necessary when keeping snakes. And as far as supplementing, if you feed the correct food items, they should have everything the snake needs. I have not once in my life added a supplement to my snakes food and never plan on it unless somebody I respect as an authority could REALLY convince me this is necessary...unlikely though.
I don't use any artificial lighting for any of my snakes. I have all their enclosures in front of windows for direct uv absorption.
My Argentines have two indoor cages and the top floor has direct day/sun light when it's available to them. The outdoor cage addition is thirteen feet long and is totally enclosed with double pane glass and has a pool and sprinkler.
Argentines are known to be more active at night, but regardless of what they normally do, mine have three cages and a lot of room to thermo regulate their temps. They prefer to be in direct lighting and sun light and actually seldom use their lower level unless it's to cool down after being in the outdoor cage all day in direct sun light. The point is they prefer direct lighting. The only time other than to cool down they use the indoor bottom cage level is in pre-shed status.
The uv thing came into question in reference to all of the information on it being a primary source of vitamin D3 for reptiles. Mine had a jaw/hinge problem and I was advised to use a supplement even though they have natural uv lighting. It did clear up the problem and since it has I only give them a very minimal dusting once a month just to insure that I don't have a problem with the hinge issue again. I've never given them a recommended dosage but a much smaller dusting as I did have positive results from using the Rep-Cal.

[ffollett]

Question - Can glass completely prevent ultraviolet ray penetration?
Does UV penetration depend on the thickness of glass? As a lab worker I
need to check my DNA samples using an UV illuminator. Are my regular eye
glasses sufficient to protect my eyes?
------------------------------------------------
Glass is not a perfect UV blocker, but it is pretty darn good. The little UV
lamp you use will not be enough to injure your eyes if you wear glasses.

And yes, as you expect, the thicker the glass, the more UV it will block.
Basically, if thickness x transmits 50% of the UV, thickness 2x will
transmit 25%, 3x will transmit 12.5%, and so on. If you have access to a
spectrometer, you can check the transmittance of your glasses.

Richard E. Barrans Jr., Ph.D.
Assistant Director
PG Research Foundation, Darien, Illinois

[Lorelei]

http://www.rainbowboas.com/biology/vitD3.htm

Many people put their reptiles near windows to get sunlight, unaware that plastic and glass block UVB rays. A proper set-up will allow UVB rays from a lamp to reach a reptile without any obstruction. Placing a mesh screen between the lamp and the animal, for example, will allow UVB rays through.




Umm - didn't YOU post this????

[softkiss]

So I'm gonna chime in here. I work at a zoo with quite a large snake collection (not the largest but we have maybe 500 - 600 snakes representing a number of really rare species). Anyways, in my years as being primarily a snake keeper, I have not noticed a difference in the overall health of our snakes based on access to UV light. Our exhibit animals are exposed to mercury vapor lights but our exhibit animals only make up nearly 35 -40% of our entire collection. We do a lot of our reproductive work off exhibit, without any special lighting. While I have read that there are a few snakes that may benefit from this lighting (as stated earlier in this thread), I believe this is the exception not the rule. We have snakes in our collection that have been here 30 - 40 years probably without ever seeing UV and they are still going strong. Our vet staff is topnotch and I do believe that if they thought our snakes were missing out on something by not having those lights, they would make sure we knew about it. So I believe that UV is not necessary when keeping snakes. And as far as supplementing, if you feed the correct food items, they should have everything the snake needs. I have not once in my life added a supplement to my snakes food and never plan on it unless somebody I respect as an authority could REALLY convince me this is necessary...unlikely though.
Maybe you have a solution to the problem I had. My female Argentine Boa at the age of about two and a half years old started having serious jaw hinge problems. They would lock so tight she would actually turn her head sideways and slam the side of her face on the floor to relock.
The last time she had a problem like this is spooked me so bad I rushed her to her vets. She merely yawned and her jaws locked open and she had a really hard time and in all reality I thought she was trying to regurgitate since she held her nose straight up in the air till she could get her jaw to release.
The vet did blood work and showed no nutritional or heath problems. All her blood work was excellent actually.
The vet advised me to try a nutritional supplement which made no sense to me since my snakes always have had all the necessary vitamin requirements.
I didn't feel confident in his prognosis so I called the local Wild Life Rehab center and talked to a Herp Society President and they referred me to another vet. I contacted this vet and explained the problem to him and he said larger Boids are vulnerable to jaw/hinge disorders that simulate a form of arthritis. He felt that my females problem was mechanical problem within her jaw and xrays were done and showed nothing significant. That vet also recommended a nutritional substitute and so I started using Rep-Cal. and oddly enough she hasn't had the same serious problem since.
To this day,(Three Years Later) I don't know what medically caused the problem and all I know that coincidence or not the problem resolved itself after I started administering the Rep-Cal. She occasionally has some problems with the hinge, but I dust her food and it stops occurring.
Have any suggestions? We've checked into everything medically that could be the cause for the hinge disorder. It seems if it were some sort of bone deformity it would be a constant problem for her.
I worked in the intensive care unit and geriatrics for twenty three years as an Rn and my gut feeling keeps telling me she may be having an absorption problem with the nutrients without showing a nutritional deficiency. Is this possible?
Thank You,
Carla

[softkiss]

Umm - didn't YOU post this????
I posted that information from a web page actually several that gave the same information. Not in my words.

[Lorelei]

I posted that information from a web page actually several that gave the same information. Not in my words.

I know those weren't your words - but you posted it as a reference, which I assumed you had read through - then said that you allow your snakes to get natural sun for UV through glass - which contradicted what you posted.

[softkiss]

I know those weren't your words - but you posted it as a reference, which I assumed you had read through - then said that you allow your snakes to get natural sun for UV through glass - which contradicted what you posted.
All the information and references I found insisted that if snakes can't get sun light they should use a uv light source. All I was posting was the information relating vitamin D3 to uv lighting and the association of the two. I didn't post the information in reference to the way I keep my snakes. I would never use artificial light myself. That's why I can't figure out why my female keeps having the jaw hinge problem if it has something to do with a dietary problem, as testing says otherwise that she's lacking nothing and has no bone abnormalities. I was making the post basically looking for input to maybe help figure out my female Args problem and what makes the Rep- Cal stop these hinge problems she keeps having from time to time since all her testing has proven she is perfectly healthy.
The original issue that got the post started was a first time snake owner that was freaking out because his snake hadn't rehinged yet and I mentioned that mine had a jaw hinge problem and I was advised to use Rep-Cal for it and it worked. I don't know why but it does. Then the post went from me administering Rep-Cal to why do I use it and it's not necessary for a supplement if the snakes are properly fed. The information just kept advancing and so on and so on and I'm still back to where I started from. I still had good luck with the product and still use it if my female has a problem, but I know my snakes are healthy and I can't get any answers to why my female is having this hinge issue if everything is in proper order.

[The Snake Guru]

All the information and references I found insisted that if snakes can't get sun light they should use a uv light source.

I would certainly like to see these sources, since non of the ones you posted said anything about snakes specifically and only talked about Reptiles in general.

The original issue that got the post started was a first time snake owner that was freaking out because his snake hadn't rehinged yet and I mentioned that mine had a jaw hinge problem

1. It wasn't a reoccurring issue, simply a large meal, which just took some extra time to get the jaw in place.....absolutely normal in snakes, and not a problem.

2. There is about a 20 year age difference between his boa and your Argentines. If I remember correctly.

I can't get any answers to why my female is having this hinge issue if everything is in proper order.


Your boas are 20+ years old if I remember correctly? Your snakes are old, old age in snakes is the same in humans....as they get older things such as jaws, joints, ect.ect. just don't work as well as they used too.

~B~

[softkiss]

I would certainly like to see these sources, since non of the ones you posted said anything about snakes specifically and only talked about Reptiles in general.



1. It wasn't a reoccurring issue, simply a large meal, which just took some extra time to get the jaw in place.....absolutely normal in snakes, and not a problem.

2. There is about a 20 year age difference between his boa and your Argentines. If I remember correctly.



Your boas are 20+ years old if I remember correctly? Your snakes are old, old age in snakes is the same in humans....as they get older things such as jaws, joints, ect.ect. just don't work as well as they used too.

~B~
My Argentines are five years old this year.
My female has had this problem repeatedly since the age of two and a half years and the male has never had these issues.
My position is all the testing I've had done on her with a clean bill of health and no deformities, then what isn't right if this nutritional additive is the only thing that helps her with this jaw hinge problem? What I'm trying to say if that there has to be something that is being overlooked or this product wouldn't make a difference if she has no detectable health issues.
Example is ever have one of those days when you get up and you just don't feel right, but you have a gut feeling that something is wrong, but you have no conclusive proof except that you feel like total crap? That's what this mess with my female has been doing to me for three years now. Everyone says she's perfectly healthy and then some, so I need to know why she is having this problem. Within myself I feel there has to be a reason that associates the Rep-Cal with relieving her problem.
In all honesty I feel like I should be getting paid for advertising their product right about now, LOL

[The Snake Guru]

Well I apologize, I was for certain you had mentioned they were older than that.

Thing of it is, if she has had that problem since that young of an age, there actually may some sort defect/issue present, apparently a slight and hardly detectable one. I wouldn't even try to offer advise on this since I'm not there to see or asses the snake in person.

~B~